Making Software More Sustainable with Tom Kennes

Tom Kennes: 00:00:00

The most popular person on Instagram is the soccer player called

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Ronaldo, maybe you've heard of him, when you post a picture it's often

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seen by about 300 million people.

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The overhead in terms of energy consumption that is implied there

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is about equal to the yearly consumption of one Amsterdam household.

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Welcome to the software delivery club.

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Where I talk to industry leaders, exploring aspects of the business of

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delivering and supporting software and production as well as how to lead

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the change in engineering and IT.

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Thank you for joining me.

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I'm your host, Richard Bown and this is episode 17.

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This time, I talked to Tom Kennis, sustainable cloud consultant and

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ambassador for the Sustainable Digital Infrastructure Alliance.

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We discuss how IT and software delivery can be more sustainable and what

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happens when Ronaldo uses Instagram.

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We also talked about the impact of programming language choice on carbon

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footprint, the amount of energy used when watching Netflix and how to

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right size your cloud infrastructure.

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Lots to dive into for the techies, with tools that are available to measure the

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impact of your software, the emphasis is very much on making small changes

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that add up to a big difference.

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So there are some really practical tips here for individuals

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and organizations alike.

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Hope you enjoy.

Richard Bown: 00:01:17

Hi, welcome to the Software Delivery Club.

Richard Bown: 00:01:20

This time I'm talking to Tom Kennes all about sustainable IT.

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Tom works as a sustainable cloud consultant at Skyworkz and

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advises companies in using the cloud in a sustainable manner.

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Next to that, he's involved as an ambassador with the Sustainable Digital

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Infrastructure Alliance, the S D I A.

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A nonprofit organization.

Richard Bown: 00:01:40

Driven by a strong passion for sustainability and technology,

Richard Bown: 00:01:43

he is eager to drive society in a more eco-friendly direction.

Richard Bown: 00:01:47

Hi Tom.

Richard Bown: 00:01:48

Thanks for joining me today.

Tom Kennes: 00:01:48

Hi.

Tom Kennes: 00:01:50

Thanks for having me.

Richard Bown: 00:01:52

Now we did work together before So I do know you in a previous

Richard Bown: 00:01:55

life, I'm really interested to find out about your new direction.

Richard Bown: 00:01:58

I know it's, in parallel to your existing work as well.

Richard Bown: 00:02:01

So maybe you could tell us a little bit more about how that works and

Richard Bown: 00:02:03

then we can go onto sustainable IT.

Tom Kennes: 00:02:06

So I've always been interested in sustainability and trying to figure

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out how I can incorporate society in my work and doing what's good for society.

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And I think sustainability is, overall the best thing you can do.

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Anything that's more sustainable will, in the end benefit society.

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And I noticed that in my work I was mostly working for big corporates, where it's

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always bit vague how they benefit society.

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And I just decided at some point, okay, I'm gonna pick up the phone, write emails,

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start calling around see which people are active in the scene of sustainable IT.

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then at some point that just started snowballing into my current

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role as ambassador for the SDIA.

Richard Bown: 00:02:56

And so how that of come about then?

Richard Bown: 00:02:57

So you say you picked up the phone.

Richard Bown: 00:02:58

So was it literally , you just connected with somebody or it,

Richard Bown: 00:03:01

was it a few of you created some momentum that, how did that work?

Tom Kennes: 00:03:06

Yeah, so the SDIA has been going on for a longer time.

Tom Kennes: 00:03:09

I think they exist now for about four years at least.

Tom Kennes: 00:03:14

The founder Mark Schultze has been doing this for about four years.

Tom Kennes: 00:03:18

First in Germany, then I think quite quickly also in the Netherlands.

Richard Bown: 00:03:22

Yeah.

Tom Kennes: 00:03:23

So I just run into him, fired this other organization called leap,

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which is mostly a Dutch organization also tries to fund or direct funds towards

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sustainability in a broader perspective.

Richard Bown: 00:03:37

Okay.

Tom Kennes: 00:03:38

And I think Mark Schultz is the first guy that I met in this scene of

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sustainable IT that really went through the same thought process as I did.

Richard Bown: 00:03:47

Okay.

Tom Kennes: 00:03:48

So we quickly hit it off and we, yeah, just for me, it was quite

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clear from the beginning that I wanted to work with him because we think

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about these things in the same way.

Richard Bown: 00:04:00

And what is that way of you thinking about things?

Richard Bown: 00:04:03

How does that differ?

Tom Kennes: 00:04:05

So I think most people that enter the realm of sustainable

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IT go through a similar fashion.

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First you think cloud is a good thing.

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Cloud is a good thing.

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Then you notice that there are some, oddities in there.

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They notice that why aren't we tackling those things?

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What's keeping us back?

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Why can't we measure it?

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Where can we measure it?

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There are all these questions that you can go through.

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You start researching and then at some point you kinda realize, okay,

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we the real question here is how can we incentivize companies to start

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reporting on their digital footprint?

Richard Bown: 00:04:39

Yeah and also how you can help them, I suppose as well.

Richard Bown: 00:04:42

Because as you say in cloud, it's not always obvious how

Richard Bown: 00:04:44

you can measure that exactly.

Tom Kennes: 00:04:48

Now in cloud, we in cloud is the least welcome environment

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where you can measure these things.

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Cause often there are layers abstraction that does not allow you to, or to read

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lower level counters if they even exist.

Richard Bown: 00:05:02

Yep.

Tom Kennes: 00:05:02

Which makes sense because you don't want to have this sort of

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root access in most other environments.

Richard Bown: 00:05:08

So what would you say is sustainable IT then in itself?

Tom Kennes: 00:05:11

So sustainable IT attempts to enable companies and developers to

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start reporting on their GHG emissions, their carbon footprint, their energy

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consumption, so it's all about starting from the bottom, I think, because I think

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if you if you can enable developers to incorporate their footprint in their

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decision making, you are enabling such a large workforce to do more

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green, to do better in that context.

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That's the end goal.

Richard Bown: 00:05:45

And presumably it's a win-win then, isn't it really?

Richard Bown: 00:05:46

Because a company can show their green credentials, but also if

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it's a bottom up driven thing, that it really brings the organization

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together in some ways as well.

Richard Bown: 00:05:56

Maybe it's good to touch on the couple of recent events that you've had.

Richard Bown: 00:05:59

I know that you have people coming along to understand sustainable IT, and how

Richard Bown: 00:06:03

does that work with them and how does that drive change in organisations?

Tom Kennes: 00:06:08

Yeah, so I think I think a lot of people are working

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on similar things at the moment.

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And we are really trying to align those efforts in a sense.

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For example, measurement.

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There, there is not that many options that you can go and there are some tools

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that are already out there to help you.

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Some companies are using them as well, I know that ABN Amro says

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that they're using it, but I've never really seen a report from them.

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For the rest, I think I, I'm not really sure other companies are

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already picking this up at the moment.

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I haven't really seen a lot of companies eager to report on their

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carbon footprint, but I do know that the big four consultancy firms are

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busy setting up they're helping out and also product marketing to audit the

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sustainable footprint of their clients.

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So I know that there's quite some momentum going on.

Tom Kennes: 00:06:59

But the last two years also I think, steered the course a little bit to a

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different direction for many companies.

Tom Kennes: 00:07:06

That's a bit more on the back burner now, but with everything going on, I think

Tom Kennes: 00:07:10

it's a matter of time before these things are more you say it top of mind again.

Richard Bown: 00:07:15

Yeah, maybe.

Richard Bown: 00:07:16

But for developers, I suppose it's something that they can do

Richard Bown: 00:07:18

every day or people working in infrastructure or people making

Richard Bown: 00:07:21

choices around infrastructure as well.

Richard Bown: 00:07:23

So do you have some tools or best practices which you recommend

Richard Bown: 00:07:27

for those kind of approaches?

Richard Bown: 00:07:28

Day to day?

Tom Kennes: 00:07:30

Yeah, so the easiest thing you can do, which also saves

Tom Kennes: 00:07:32

you money in the end, is just right sizing your deployment, your

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provisioning your cloud, basically.

Tom Kennes: 00:07:39

We see that lot of times we size things for big load, whereas if you would work

Tom Kennes: 00:07:44

with more of an auto scaling kind of way, you kind of course mitigate a little bit.

Tom Kennes: 00:07:48

I think that's the easiest way to really improve your footprint as

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well as your financial position.

Tom Kennes: 00:07:54

So that's really a win-win.

Richard Bown: 00:07:55

So that's like picking the right size vm, for example

Richard Bown: 00:07:57

. Tom Kennes: Yeah.

Richard Bown: 00:07:58

That's perfect.

Richard Bown: 00:07:58

Also thinking about developing a service in the first place is it really necessary

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to have what would imply in terms of sustainability and carbon footprint.

Richard Bown: 00:08:07

That's something that we also recommend a lot, but that's of

Richard Bown: 00:08:11

course a bit more difficult, I would say because it's also very hard to

Richard Bown: 00:08:16

get numbers on these kinda things.

Richard Bown: 00:08:17

Because that's like the build versus buy approach.

Richard Bown: 00:08:19

So should we build it here or should we just buy it from somebody

Richard Bown: 00:08:22

else who's already doing it maybe and leverage their platform?

Tom Kennes: 00:08:25

Yeah, exactly.

Richard Bown: 00:08:27

There's quite a famous kind of league table of programming

Richard Bown: 00:08:31

languages and showing how green they are in comparison or how much energy they use.

Richard Bown: 00:08:36

Are these things that we can also use as developers or system

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designers to inform our decisions?

Tom Kennes: 00:08:43

Yeah, so the SDIA doesn't really promote certain software

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types or programming languages.

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We take a bit more of a broader scope.

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We also look at UI, data center architecture even energy equip

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mix, those kind of things.

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I know some research from the Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam which recommends

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certain tactics that you can apply as a programmer to build better software.

Tom Kennes: 00:09:05

But I also really like the research that that gave us that table because if you

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look at it then you see that python has a energy consumption as 80 times that of C#.

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This really gives you a lot more quite a good indication how bad Python

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actually can be and why you should not build your applications in python.

Tom Kennes: 00:09:25

Of course, your other side of the coin is programmers time, engineers time, so

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it's always a bit of a balance, I think.

Tom Kennes: 00:09:32

But I think this kind of sustainability metrics aspects.

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They're slowly finding their way into this decision making process, and this

Tom Kennes: 00:09:39

is a really nice example how you can how you can incorporate it, I think.

Richard Bown: 00:09:43

Yeah, sounds really interesting.

Richard Bown: 00:09:44

So do you have any examples of success stories implementations or changes of

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view, which have been really successful?

Tom Kennes: 00:09:51

In my current project we have replaced some Python code with Go.

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And that made things much easier in many different aspects I It goes

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much smaller, builds much faster.

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It performs a bit better, the overhead's much smaller.

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So it's and the footprint is of course much lower, right?

Tom Kennes: 00:10:08

So you win on many different levels

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. Richard Bown: We've touched

Tom Kennes: 00:10:13

We've touched a bit on as well what organizations can do, but I understand

Tom Kennes: 00:10:18

as you say, that timing might be a, an issue in terms of coming out of the

Tom Kennes: 00:10:23

Covid 19 situation, business owners being under pressure a little bit, and also

Tom Kennes: 00:10:27

the ongoing potential global downturn.

Tom Kennes: 00:10:32

So how does the S D I A or how do yourself look at that and say is it a

Tom Kennes: 00:10:36

case of we can afford to wait, or should we make these changes now if possible?

Tom Kennes: 00:10:42

Yeah I think it's a difficult question because basically ask you

Tom Kennes: 00:10:47

should we wait fixing our long term issues to fix our short term issues?

Tom Kennes: 00:10:51

And I'm lucky not in politics.

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So I'm allowed to look more on long term.

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And I think these sort of issues they are too important to not fix as well.

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And I also think from a personal perspective, I've got much more, I

Tom Kennes: 00:11:04

can make much more of an impact on those problems, and I can make, on

Tom Kennes: 00:11:07

the short term problems, I can't do anything about Covid nor about

Tom Kennes: 00:11:10

the Russian Ukraine problems.

Tom Kennes: 00:11:12

I think that's something that I as well as many engineers and

Tom Kennes: 00:11:15

developers can actually contribute to.

Tom Kennes: 00:11:17

That's why, Yeah, that's why I think it's important to do.

Richard Bown: 00:11:21

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense actually.

Richard Bown: 00:11:22

It is something that we can all do at a small level, isn't it really?

Richard Bown: 00:11:26

So how can listeners find out more about the S D I A.

Tom Kennes: 00:11:30

So we of course have a website.

Tom Kennes: 00:11:31

We are on LinkedIn.

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It's possible to become a member as well yourself, even a partner if you want.

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Then you can post the logo of the SDIA, your website.

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We also have MatterMost, which basically is some form of a slack

Tom Kennes: 00:11:43

forum where you can find all the people that are working in this

Tom Kennes: 00:11:47

field and maybe share your I ideas.

Richard Bown: 00:11:51

Okay.

Tom Kennes: 00:11:51

That's also where we post many of our internal updates.

Tom Kennes: 00:11:54

Cuz there are some things going on in parallel we also have a

Tom Kennes: 00:11:58

conference today in London actually.

Tom Kennes: 00:11:59

We're doing the same things as we did before in Berlin and

Tom Kennes: 00:12:02

Amsterdam the last two weeks.

Tom Kennes: 00:12:03

Yeah, and overall I would say you could always reach out to me or to Max

Tom Kennes: 00:12:07

or just directly through the S D I A.

Richard Bown: 00:12:12

Cool.

Richard Bown: 00:12:12

Great.

Richard Bown: 00:12:13

Yeah.

Richard Bown: 00:12:14

And just to reiterate, what are the benefits then for companies to

Richard Bown: 00:12:17

be able to encourage themselves to join this scheme for individuals

Richard Bown: 00:12:21

I think it's quite clear now.

Richard Bown: 00:12:22

What about for companies themselves?

Richard Bown: 00:12:23

Is there a way that the S D I A works as a scoring mechanism or is

Richard Bown: 00:12:28

there some kind of league table?

Tom Kennes: 00:12:29

That's a really good question.

Tom Kennes: 00:12:30

I think for a company it's interesting to join the SDIA if you want to market

Tom Kennes: 00:12:35

or promote your the way you look at sustainability, I think we are one of

Tom Kennes: 00:12:42

the biggest nonprofits in the European Union that focus on sustainable IT and

Tom Kennes: 00:12:47

being affiliated with an organization really gives you really to sign that you

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care about our long term environment.

Tom Kennes: 00:12:55

There are also companies that actually contribute as well, that

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are active in our community forum.

Tom Kennes: 00:13:02

That help us to digest information or to conduct experiments

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or to just spread knowledge.

Tom Kennes: 00:13:07

So you can also do that but in the end, I think in the end it's about showing

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that you care for the environment, which it's something that investors

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are looking more and more for.

Tom Kennes: 00:13:16

And this will be an, a simple way to to show to the bigger audience.

Tom Kennes: 00:13:21

And in return you can also extract knowledge from this community, right?

Tom Kennes: 00:13:26

Cuz there are lot of people that work on tools or implementations that either

Tom Kennes: 00:13:30

give you data on your footprint or that are working on legislation or

Tom Kennes: 00:13:36

that focus more on sharing knowledge.

Tom Kennes: 00:13:39

So there are different topics in this community as well.

Tom Kennes: 00:13:41

You can benefit.

Richard Bown: 00:13:43

Awesome.

Richard Bown: 00:13:43

And is that all in the slack or is it in other forms?

Tom Kennes: 00:13:47

So yeah, this is mostly on "mattermost" which is basically our slack.

Tom Kennes: 00:13:51

But it's a open source version of Slack.

Richard Bown: 00:13:53

Okay.

Tom Kennes: 00:13:53

Which we host ourselves on a green server.

Tom Kennes: 00:13:57

Which is focused by renewables.

Tom Kennes: 00:13:58

And yeah, you can send a mail to the SDIA and then we can add you to to mattermost.

Richard Bown: 00:14:03

So tell me a little bit more about this green server and

Richard Bown: 00:14:07

then the way that this is hosted.

Richard Bown: 00:14:08

Cause that itself is, sounds like a really good case study.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:10

Yeah think I went a bit too far there.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:12

And the I think the server is not green by itself.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:15

The energy that it's using is green.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:16

I do know, a case, which is quite interesting, there is this

Tom Kennes: 00:14:19

website I need to look it up.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:20

Maybe I could share it with you later.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:21

Which is basically a block that directly is connected to a solar panel.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:27

And it only is available when there is solar light, right?

Tom Kennes: 00:14:31

So at night it's often offline.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:33

Of course, even when it's cloudy, it can be offline.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:36

There's no, no images.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:38

So I think the overall page size is somewhere around maybe one mb I

Tom Kennes: 00:14:42

don't know but generally quiet quite low compared to many pages of today.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:46

And it powers off when there's no energy available.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:49

Which is in my opinion, quite a good thing to do for the environment cuz you don't

Tom Kennes: 00:14:54

have to rely on fossil fuels, et cetera.

Richard Bown: 00:14:57

Definitely.

Richard Bown: 00:14:57

Yeah, it sounds really interesting.

Richard Bown: 00:14:58

Yeah, please do share that.

Tom Kennes: 00:14:59

Yeah.

Tom Kennes: 00:15:00

I think I also want to take a moment to maybe mention a couple of tools

Tom Kennes: 00:15:04

the developers already can use and how this more or less works cuz in the end

Tom Kennes: 00:15:08

so I think if you can measure these things, you can also report on them.

Tom Kennes: 00:15:12

And it's easier to convince management or to show investors that you are

Tom Kennes: 00:15:17

that this is important what you do.

Tom Kennes: 00:15:19

And you can also after the fact that what you have done is actually valuable.

Tom Kennes: 00:15:23

I think that's also the main challenge we have right now.

Tom Kennes: 00:15:25

How can we show that our improvements in software or orchestration also

Tom Kennes: 00:15:31

result in lower energy consumption?

Richard Bown: 00:15:33

Absolutely.

Tom Kennes: 00:15:34

So as I mentioned before, also there is this one tool which focuses on

Tom Kennes: 00:15:38

performance monitoring counters . Which basically directly come from a CPU and

Tom Kennes: 00:15:43

say how much energy a CPU is using.

Tom Kennes: 00:15:45

These counters are sometimes available, mostly in Intel chips, and Intel also

Tom Kennes: 00:15:50

provides an interface, which is called RPL to convert some of these counters

Tom Kennes: 00:15:55

into more more user friendly format.

Tom Kennes: 00:15:57

So this is basically the only approach that currently exists to from a software

Tom Kennes: 00:16:02

level, reach your power consumption.

Tom Kennes: 00:16:04

Otherwise you would need to attach a volt meter to your your server or your machine

Tom Kennes: 00:16:07

to from the outside get an estimation.

Tom Kennes: 00:16:11

If these things don't exist, we, you have to rely on estimation

Tom Kennes: 00:16:15

methods and those kind of things.

Tom Kennes: 00:16:17

So they're really two separate fields basically in this topic and for the

Tom Kennes: 00:16:22

RPL part where you can measure there a couple of tools coming from a French

Tom Kennes: 00:16:26

organization called Scaphandre, and it's a tool that you can even use in

Tom Kennes: 00:16:31

the cluster on just in a container.

Tom Kennes: 00:16:33

You can deploy it on your Kubernetes cluster that exposes metrics to

Tom Kennes: 00:16:39

Prometheus that you can use from there.

Tom Kennes: 00:16:41

They also have some other tools as well that they use to even

Tom Kennes: 00:16:45

calculate embodied carbon, right?

Tom Kennes: 00:16:47

So the carbon that has been used to the carbon emissions that

Tom Kennes: 00:16:51

that were emitted during the manufacturing part of the server.

Richard Bown: 00:16:55

Okay.

Richard Bown: 00:16:55

Wow.

Tom Kennes: 00:16:56

Quite cool which are all estimations and I think they're

Tom Kennes: 00:16:59

the best effort we currently have.

Tom Kennes: 00:17:00

So that's that's a part that exists.

Tom Kennes: 00:17:03

And if you can't if you can't use these RPL interface or if you're working in

Tom Kennes: 00:17:07

a non root environment or when you work on a higher level of abstraction such as

Tom Kennes: 00:17:11

lambdas or functions, then I think the cloud carbon footprint calculator and this

Tom Kennes: 00:17:18

tool basically it's developed by the most important people in this field that have

Tom Kennes: 00:17:22

been working on measuring for a couple of years and this tool actually looks at

Tom Kennes: 00:17:27

your cpu utilization in AWS and after the fact gives you a estimation of the power

Tom Kennes: 00:17:36

that has been consumed in the process and how much emissions yeah implies.

Richard Bown: 00:17:41

Excellent.

Richard Bown: 00:17:42

That sounds like quite a lot of stuff . So Yeah.

Richard Bown: 00:17:44

But if you can share those with me later, that would be perfect and

Richard Bown: 00:17:47

I'll put them in the show notes.

Tom Kennes: 00:17:49

Yeah.

Tom Kennes: 00:17:50

Yeah, definitely do share it.

Tom Kennes: 00:17:52

What I also like about these tools is that it really enables developers

Tom Kennes: 00:17:55

that are eager to do something with sustainability, to start measuring

Tom Kennes: 00:18:00

their footprint and to start actually doing something in their daily work.

Tom Kennes: 00:18:03

It really brings this quite abstract idea of the sustainable IT into an

Tom Kennes: 00:18:10

everyday life of engineer developer.

Tom Kennes: 00:18:12

I think that's if you can achieve that as a society, as a industry, we are one

Tom Kennes: 00:18:19

big step closer to finding a solution for climate change, for those kind

Tom Kennes: 00:18:24

of things, at least for our fields.

Tom Kennes: 00:18:28

Maybe good to add one last thing to that because we haven't really discussed that

Tom Kennes: 00:18:32

yet, but think it's important to also note people don't know often realize this.

Tom Kennes: 00:18:38

Because currently if you look at the total energy consumed by IT

Tom Kennes: 00:18:42

we are somewhere at six, seven, 8% of the total energy consumption.

Tom Kennes: 00:18:46

There's an estimate and academics are not really aligned here.

Tom Kennes: 00:18:50

Also depends on the scope that you use and I've read so many papers

Tom Kennes: 00:18:54

that employ different methods or have different assumptions.

Tom Kennes: 00:18:57

But it's somewhere in that area.

Tom Kennes: 00:18:58

And if you look at the pace that this has been growing over, the last years.

Tom Kennes: 00:19:02

If that would continue, we will end up 15, 20%, maybe even 30%.

Tom Kennes: 00:19:08

Also, estimations, don't take my word for it.

Tom Kennes: 00:19:11

These are all just based on speculation.

Tom Kennes: 00:19:12

But so all in all the IT sector has quite a big impact.

Tom Kennes: 00:19:17

So if we were to change our ways, we can actually solve quite a big part

Tom Kennes: 00:19:21

of this puzzle next to, of course, supplying the tools to make other

Tom Kennes: 00:19:26

sectors as, as well more sustainable.

Richard Bown: 00:19:27

A really good point.

Richard Bown: 00:19:28

IT underpins so much of what we do today of course.

Richard Bown: 00:19:31

And it consumes so much power.

Richard Bown: 00:19:33

You don't need to tell me, I have three kids who are eating the it

Richard Bown: 00:19:35

up, the power the whole time anyway.

Richard Bown: 00:19:37

But yeah, if you can make one change, just one app a popular app which will

Richard Bown: 00:19:41

save a fraction of a percent, then globally rolling that out could make

Richard Bown: 00:19:45

a fundamentally large difference.

Tom Kennes: 00:19:48

Yeah, look at Netflix or Instagram.

Tom Kennes: 00:19:50

And we don't even have numbers on no accurate numbers that are really

Tom Kennes: 00:19:53

reliable on how much energy is consumed by these applications.

Tom Kennes: 00:19:57

But there have been predictions that put an hour of Netflix equal to 30 kilometers

Tom Kennes: 00:20:03

of driving on an electric vehicle.

Tom Kennes: 00:20:06

Personally, I, this seems a bit high to me and Netflix also has

Tom Kennes: 00:20:10

been strong in refuting it as well.

Tom Kennes: 00:20:12

But I wouldn't be surprised if it's still quite high.

Tom Kennes: 00:20:15

And these kind of numbers would also be really valuable to have, right?

Tom Kennes: 00:20:18

You can even start thinking about, okay, what if I don't use Netflix

Tom Kennes: 00:20:22

today and start doing something now that consumes less energy.

Tom Kennes: 00:20:25

And the same for Instagram.

Tom Kennes: 00:20:26

For Instagram there have been more accurate numbers around there, and I

Tom Kennes: 00:20:29

think that so what I read is that the most popular person on Instagram is the

Tom Kennes: 00:20:33

soccer player called Ronaldo, maybe you've heard of him, when you post a picture it's

Tom Kennes: 00:20:37

often seen by about 300 million people.

Tom Kennes: 00:20:40

The overhead in terms of energy consumption that is implied there

Tom Kennes: 00:20:44

is about equal to the yearly consumption of one Amsterdam household.

Tom Kennes: 00:20:48

Which is which is this one picture from one person.

Tom Kennes: 00:20:52

So this of course this quickly adds.

Tom Kennes: 00:20:55

And in these uh, pen scale application services 1% can

Tom Kennes: 00:21:00

make so much of a difference.

Tom Kennes: 00:21:01

That's why measuring is so important.

Tom Kennes: 00:21:03

Cause it, it allows us to start to connect these things in our decision making.

Tom Kennes: 00:21:08

And that's really what we're lacking now.

Tom Kennes: 00:21:10

Even if you look at our sense of emissions, it's, that's often so much

Tom Kennes: 00:21:15

lower than we actually are emitting.

Tom Kennes: 00:21:18

There have been studies that ask people how much CO2 is emitted when you use one

Tom Kennes: 00:21:24

gallon of gasoline and people have been underestimating their footprint by 70%.

Tom Kennes: 00:21:30

So it's incredible how little we actually know about our daily life

Tom Kennes: 00:21:36

carbon footprint, or emissions.

Tom Kennes: 00:21:38

. So there's also much work to

Tom Kennes: 00:21:41

dedicate ourselves and each other.

Richard Bown: 00:21:45

Fascinating.

Richard Bown: 00:21:45

Brilliant.

Richard Bown: 00:21:46

Tom, thank you so much.

Richard Bown: 00:21:47

We've got lots of things to share with our listeners.

Richard Bown: 00:21:49

Lots and lots of links for you to dig out I think as well.

Richard Bown: 00:21:51

But I'd just like to say thank you so much for joining me.

Richard Bown: 00:21:53

And I'll wrap up for today and I'll say thank you for joining us and see you

Richard Bown: 00:21:58

again on the Software Delivery Club.

Richard Bown: 00:22:01

Oh, one last thing before you go.

Richard Bown: 00:22:04

Just a short reminder that I have daily newsletter where I share lots

Richard Bown: 00:22:07

of great content about how to lead the change in software delivery.

Richard Bown: 00:22:11

You can check it out and sign up at softwaredelivery.club.

Richard Bown: 00:22:15

Thanks.